Comments on Book Marketing Bestsellers: Promoting books to a worldwide audience. Book Promotion Blog!: Amazon Bestsellers: Comments on Comments

John---these "writers" are obviously still living ...

2009-08-25T08:11:47.585-07:00

John---these "writers" are obviously still living in the fantasy world where great books become bestsellers with no sales process necessary.

To all writers--haven't you realized that the books that are NYT bestsellers are using a similar strategy as the Amazon.com bestseller program---it's just at a macro-level. The larger publishers have the pull to get anyone they want on talk shows, featured in publications, and speaking at events--regardless of their book's quality.

Both of these models leverage relationships to get what the writer ultimately wants--which is book sales.

Please don't pretend that somehow finding a book agent (whose job is to sell the publisher on a book regardless of how good it is) and then publishing it with a multi-national conglomerate who has strong ties in every market is any different from a very simple Amazon.com bestseller program.

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2005-10-01T21:15:00.000-07:00

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Jeeze, Katharine I hope you get published soon! A...

2005-09-11T10:09:00.000-07:00

Jeeze, Katharine I hope you get published soon! As a retired professional marketer (not in the book industry, I stumbled across this discussion by accident) I have heard your arguments before.

Couple Points:

- "Trying to make a sale that the person wasn’t looking for is still spam.." How about billboards, television commercials, those annoying blown-in subscription cards in magazines or the ladies who ambush you with perfume in the department store?

- "I don’t need spam OR a cheap “gift” to help me decide what to read." Free sample of toilet paper or diapers? Rebate on your car purchase? 0% interest on that new credit card? Toaster at the bank?

Now imagine yourself in your ideal world...no slimey salesmen/women or marketeers telling you what to buy. No information.

You have it all bass-ackwords...bad products can not be helped by any level of marketing. Think "New Coke". And "bribing" people to respond does not involve deadly force...they evaluate the offer and make a decision.

Let me leave you with a current book example: Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You To Know About by Kevin Trudeau. It's book number 10 on Amazon as I type this, yet after *987* customer reviews it has only TWO STARS. It's crap and it's snake-oil and it's selling wildly.

Get off that high-horse. Any marketing effort to get your product or service's name out is a good thing and consumers always have the final vote. But we vote with our wallets as well as we vote for our presidents...don't get me started on *that*!

I have responses to the majority of your points.2....

2005-08-10T19:30:00.000-07:00

I have responses to the majority of your points.

2. Whether or not you see it as a flaw, Amazon.com does not ACCURATELY reflect the achievement that they are implying. The result is the “Amazon bestseller” status misleads consumers. That is little better than lying to us. I see it as a flaw.
3. People may know that “Amazon bestseller” status applies only to Amazon.com sales, but they will still assume that the status was achieved in a consistent fashion and because the book was good. Again, little better than a lie.
4. Psychology has a theory that people tend to convince themselves of a lie they are paid to tell. The human brain does not like inconsistencies between thoughts and actions, and in many cases the thought is easier to change than the action. You get paid to tell people this is a good idea, hence you believe it.
5. There are many, many books out there to hold someone’s hand through the process. And there are honest services that will do the same.
6. If a list owner respected the members of their list, there wouldn’t be a list in the first place. Just because someone buys a book when a freebie is offered doesn’t mean they are interested in more. I don’t need spam OR a cheap “gift” to help me decide what to read.
7. The key words in this statement are “harder” and “cost in time and money is much higher.” If takes more work to get on these lists, then it follows that they are generally a more accurate representation of the status they are supposed to show.
8. Again, just because someone buys into one promotion doesn’t mean they are interested in the next. Spamming and soliciting is the act of approaching someone to try to get something from them. Trying to make a sale that the person wasn’t looking for is still spam, even if they bought something similar before.
9. What you described is not manipulating the lists. It’s the booksellers trying to ANTICIPATE the market, which is seen everywhere. Think about the fashion industry, the computer industry, the movie industry, etc. etc. etc. They are all anticipating where the market will go next. However, to do this they need to have a feel for what consumers want. Amazon.com is manipulating, not anticipating, because the program is not focused on what consumers want, but on who has the money to buy into the program.
10. One success story does not prove anything. Did you ever take a statistics class?
11. I don’t call honestly promoting worthwhile material to be “begging for notice.”
12. If it takes that much other work, perhaps it is because the Amazon.com program is worthless, with or without the other effort.
13. I am not interested with your beef with Amazon.com.
14. Good, hold your head up high. Makes it a better target that way.
15. Scholastic’s “manipulation” was done in a different light. They were making people wait for what they already wanted in order to use suspense as a marketing tool, not bribing people to buy what they never would have been interested in otherwise.
16. You are missing the point. However long it took these books to earn bestseller status, they did so because people were interested in the BOOKS, not the free stuff.
17. Since when was reflection of real life more important than an emotional connection with the book? If you threw out every book and every movie that was not a perfectly accurate representation of real life, you’d be left with virtually nothing. Furthermore, just because my book is better than a bestseller doesn’t mean that the bestseller didn’t earn its sales by genuine interest. I can value my own and others’ writings at the same time. Cutting down everything else to make you feel better about your own efforts is rather childish, don’t you think? Please don’t encourage us to do act in such a way. We are professional adults, not pawns in your little game.
18. Publishing a book doesn’t mean you have a God-given right for people to buy it, regardless of quality. And again, I don’t need spam or a bribe in order enrich my life with a high quality, little-known book. Your efforts are promoting something far worse than the efforts of other bestseller lists. You are trying to promote books without any knowledge of the book itself. You are judging a book not even by its cover, but by the author’s wallet.
19. Do you know what circular logic is?
20. I disagree. The books are being purchased. I find it hard to believe that 7 million (or more) copies of a book sell just so that people can use them as toilet paper. Furthermore, PROMOTING isn’t the same as BRIBING.
21. There are good books out there that aren’t on bestsellers lists, yes. But that doesn’t mean that we should promote books that AREN’T good under false pretenses.
22. Getting riled up because you’ve been publicly humiliated doesn’t prove you are honest.
23. So if you like your book, you are freed from moral obligations in pursuing success? I don’t follow your logic.
24. Putting people on mailing lists and inundating them with solicitations is NOT building relationships. Not good ones, anyway.
25. Are you a writer, or a reincarnated salesman?

If I did this successfully, I actually screwed up ...

2005-08-07T13:28:00.000-07:00

If I did this successfully, I actually screwed up and it will appear 3 times.

Not sure how long it usually takes to appear.

That's a newbie for you!
Judy

Hello Dear John,This is your dear friend from NM w...

2005-08-07T13:27:00.000-07:00

Hello Dear John,

This is your dear friend from NM who now lives in CA.

Wow, my first blog entry! I'm honored that it is with the one man I know personally who has the most integrity, brain power and caring for fellow human beings that anyone can have.

Since I am in my first Amazon campaign by being part of Ponn Sabra's "Empowering Women to Power Network" and communicating with Ponn, I learned of this whole ongoing Amazon blog communication. Actually, I don't think I can think or type fast enough to keep up with all the material you, anonymous and all the others keep writing. You all must have a different 24 hour day than I have.

Here's my two cents. I have seen these Amazon campaigns in my email for years by Mark Victor Hansen, Jack Canfield and so many others. I realize this is the formula that many are using and the way things now are. I never totally understood them, but mostly observed and stayed curious.

I have always been curious about the Amazon ranking numbers and never seem to have had any clarity on what they really mean. For years (literally) my book "The Budget Kit:Common Cents Money Management Workbook" 3rd Edition has hovered between 300 - 5000 every single day. I know because I used to watch it daily on my Junglescan to compare it to the other great personal finance books done by people like Suzi Orman, David Bach and Dave Ramsey to name a few. I had no idea what was going on - never did a campaign - didn't know what it was - just noticed that the ranking numbers with my book, The Budget, were consistently in that range day after day. When my book or name was mentioned in a magazine or be on a radio show, yes the numbers would get even better. My whole purpose for the interest was seeing how my rankings compared and that they often would be much better than the above mentioned well known, best selling authors.

How many sales did that represent? I really don't know since my publisher, Dearborn Trade handles those sales. I do know the numbers certainly were not enough to make me rich or even close - by any means - or to even say the numbers were in the 1000s -and I'm still talking "years" at those rankings. Dearborn assured me that any ranking under 10,000 was very good.

Now an interesting thing happened last year. "The Budget Kit" came out in the 4th Edition. Amazon kept messing up. They did not have the proper links for the new edition for over 6 months. You know how critical the initial timing is for a new release of a new book. As you said John, it is nearly impossible to make corrections and get changes done within Amazon. So anyone who thinks you can manipulate Amazon from the inside is crazy. I've had numerous experiences while working with another small publisher on that issue.

When you typed in the name of the The Budget Kit book it always defaulted to the 3rd edition and there were barely any books left of that version. It was impossible to actually FIND the 4th and current edition of the book on Amazon for many MONTHS - a terrible thing to happen with a new released book. I knew I was losing all the momentum that had been there for years.

Finally, I figured out you had to type in "4th edition" to find the current book - like every customer would know that! What happened to the ranking? Suddenly my ranking was up to to the 30,000-60,000 range. After years of seeing lower numbers, I was extremly disappointed. Today the ranking is 8322 - still not what it used to be. I don't believe the ranking has ever come down to the 3000 and below range anymore - and I have not been doing much differently than I have for the last 4 years.

The 3rd edtion now sits in the 200,000 range - pretty interesting for a book that is not even in print anymore!

Basically, I bring this up to

1) To present another side of the Amazon story when no campaign is present and to show how unpredicable, frustrating and confusing Amazon can be.
2) To back up your point that books have to have something going for them in general so they stand up somewhat on their own.
3 And like you said, show that without that extra major push, and major campaign it's pretty impossible to stand out and get on any best seller list. I know. My book has been in continuous print for 25 years and has never seen one best selling list - opps - except being in the top 10 Business books in the Denver Post sometime in the late 80s.

I'll be delighted to see how successful Ponn's campaign is for her new book. Ponn is one of those amazing women who lives with a different time system, gives from the heart every hour of the day, professionally cares about her venture partners and comes from integrity in everything she does.

For myself, being the Personal Budget Coach expert and one of those lucky venture partners to work with Ponn, I'm looking forward to my first experience with the Amazon campaign on Aug. 11 as part of “The Women’s Empowerment Tool-Kit: Everything You Need for Your Personal and Professional Empowerment from Start-up to Success”.

John, I think you should join us! I believe there is still time.

With Warmest Regards,
Judy Lawrence
www.moneytracker.com

I am very interested in the pros and cons of the "...

2005-08-07T08:00:00.000-07:00

I am very interested in the pros and cons of the "Amazon.com campaign" utilizing the free bonuses, endorsements from owners of email lists, etc. On first blush, it sounded like a great way to get a lot of books sold and the notion of having an Amazon.com "bestseller" seemed enticing. But I had questions like:

How many books does it really take to make it onto Amazon's bestseller list? What are the downsides to this kind of promotion? How important in the bookselling industry is the cachet of "Amazon.com bestseller", especially if this only occurred for a brief moment in time and was generated by such a campaign?

And reading through this post (and the comment threads) has helped shed more light on these and other questions I have.

I did notice my "church" was mentioned a couple of times, so I'll weigh in briefly on that. I've been a Scientologist for 32 years. Very proud to be one. In those 30 some years, I do recall being asked to go out and buy a book by L. Ron Hubbard. Once for Battlefield Earth and once for the first book in the Mission Earth series. I was delighted to know when these books were being released and I was more than happy to go out and buy a copy. I'm not making an official statement on behalf of my church...I'm simply saying I appreciated being told when these books would be available in bookstores and making a trip over to Barnes and Nobles early in the book's release was not a big effort on my part. In that over 150 million copies of L. Ron Hubbard's books have been sold, I agree with John: someone else is paying attention and liking what they read.

John, I admire that you even let "Anonymous" on your comment thread. Yes, I know it's the "blogger's way" to allow opposing points of view. But "Anonymous" went after YOU and kept pounding and pounding on your integrity. From what I could discern, "Anonymous" didn't want to see (or care to acknowledge) the MANY legitimate points you made about the Amazon program. He just kept coming after YOU.

John Kremer, you've done an ENORMOUS amount of good in the book publishing world. You continue to do so. Thank you for keeping us so well informed.

Some of use are naturally skilled at time manageme...

2005-08-04T15:58:00.000-07:00

Some of use are naturally skilled at time management so we can post and not sacrifice being successful.

You folks certainly have a lot of time. I've sold...

2005-08-04T14:37:00.000-07:00

You folks certainly have a lot of time. I've sold 42 books, 15,000 plus articles and have TV, stage and film credits and can offer 26 words.

Let me get this straight...you get paid from someo...

2005-08-03T13:25:00.000-07:00

Let me get this straight...you get paid from someone for referrals (I do that too, so I'm not against it), yet you don't know how much it is?

Do you not cash a check at the bank like the rest of it? Surely you keep records??? I sure hope you don't do your own taxes.

"1. Well, finally you admit it's you who is mad at...

2005-08-01T08:09:00.000-07:00

"1. Well, finally you admit it's you who is mad at the Amazon bestseller program. "

Since there are so many people posting as anonymous I can't tell for sure, but if you meant that to mean me, that's ridiculous for the simple reason I've never sold anything, nor have I ever tried to sell anything nor have I ever had any desire to sell anything on Amazon.com, so I'm not sure how I could be "mad" at them for anything...I can't find any reference to anyone being "mad" but this thread is getting very long, so plese point it out, I must have missed it. My book simply wouldn't make any money there, so the publisher sells it directly to its audience, who probably wouldn't be looking for it on Amazon, anyway.

"Since I started this conversation, I should have some right to decide what it is I'm talking about."

It's you who invited responses. You know what they say about being careful what you ask for. It seems your readers are taking exception to your promoting ways to shift the Amazon stats. There's obviously several (at least 4) different people posting on here, speaking out against it.

Look at it this way, out of all your threads at least this one is getting noticed.

Hi John,1. You said, "I've never changed the subje...

2005-08-01T07:50:00.000-07:00

Hi John,

1. You said, "I've never changed the subject. The subject as I reiterated in my last post is covering all bestseller lists. Since I started this conversation, I should have some right to decide what it is I'm talking about."

Yes, John, you keep trying to change the subject to deflect attention away from your promotion of the dishonest Amazon program. I'm not the only person that pointed that out here. There are several people participating in this debate, John, and just because we're at your house (at your website) doesn't mean you get to choose the path of each conversation.

2. You say in your most recent post, "I do not promote the Amazon.com campaign for money." But, above, over the weekend, you admitted you promote it for a "big chunk" of money (another contradiction). You promote it on your site and to your readers and include your affiliate link (without telling your readers that the company you're endorsing is paying you to do so).

3. I've been looking at your posts about the Amazon program and I can't find anywhere that you've mentioned you're getting money when you're writing about the program (until readers started asking about it here on your blogs). All I see is a glowing endorsement and a referral link.

4. You said, "I promote the Amazon.com bestseller campaigns whether people carry them out via Randy and Peggy's program..." And that is a shame for all the reasons your readers have stated here about dishonesty and manipulation.

5. You said, "I really don't know the exact amount I make. I know it's a chunk." Well, for a program that costs $2K+, I guess we can all estimate what a "chunk" is if you're not willing to be forthcoming about the amount. You admit you earn $500/hour in consulting fees, so why can't you tell us how much you're earning from your readers who are clicking on your affiliate link? Why is this company so secretive about how much it pays affiliates? I guess it really doesn't matter. Just the fact that you've been promoting the program without telling your readers you're profiting from it speaks volumes. My personal opinion is that you're making so much money that you're letting your pocketbook dominate your common sense on this issue. Even your own readers have criticized your endorsement of this program, yet you continue to promote and profit from it.

Do you earn more than referral fees from Bradley Communications? Are you in anyway whatsoever partners with Randy and Peggy?

You then said, "Now, on to your second post..."

I didn't write that second post, John.

Finally, you said, "I have been very clear many times in my blog and web site and email newsletter that I have a relationship with Bradley Communications since we work together on the Book Marketing Update newsletter."

You're not being honest, John. You have not told your readers about your relationship with them when endorsing their program. In fact, I can't find any posts on your site at all where you've admitted that your endorsements are making your money.

In this post - Amazon.com Bestseller Campaigns: Why They Work and Why They Fail - http://openhorizons.blogspot.com/2005/07/amazoncom-bestseller-campaigns-why.html - you endorse the program and refer readers to the program via your referral link. Nowhere in that post is a disclaimer that you're making money on that endorsement. That's also the post where you tell your readers that people participating in this program are "obligated" to share their customers' email addresses with others (endorsing spam).

And here - B&N versus Amazon Bestsellers - http://openhorizons.blogspot.com/2005/07/bn-versus-amazon-bestsellers.html - you are openly endorsing the program but not telling your readers you're making money on the deal. There is no mention of any relationship whatsoever. You include an affiliate link here, too.

And here - Free Audio on Making Your Book an Amazon.com Bestseller - http://www.bookmarket.com/tip050209.html - same thing. Another endorsement but no mention of a relationship or profits from the endorsement.

In this post - More Reader Responses: Making Your Book an Amazon Bestseller - http://www.bookmarket.com/tip050228.html - despite numerous complaints about your endorsement of this program from your readers, you state "That's why I highlight such programs for you. And why I will do it again. That's part of my job with this free newsletter." But you again fail to tell your readers that you're making money on the endorsement. In that post you also actually insult your own readers by saying "Shame on you" and "such stupid people." I don't even know how to respond to those comments, John.

Comments to anonymous:1. I've never changed the su...

2005-07-31T17:36:00.000-07:00

Comments to anonymous:

1. I've never changed the subject. The subject as I reiterated in my last post is covering all bestseller lists. Since I started this conversation, I should have some right to decide what it is I'm talking about.

2. I do not promote the Amazon.com campaign for money. Over and over again, I've told people that they can find the basic outline of how to do it on my web site at http://www.bookmarket.com/jason.html. If people want their hands held while carrying out the program, I do refer people to an alternative, a program set up by Peggy McColl and Randy Gage, and promoted via teleseminars by Bradley Communications and others.

3. I have been very clear many times in my blog and web site and email newsletter that I have a relationship with Bradley Communications since we work together on the Book Marketing Update newsletter. I have no direct relationship at all with Peggy and Randy, other than I think they are good people trying to help others. What income I get from referrals to their program come through Bradley.

4. I promote the Amazon.com bestseller campaigns whether people carry them out via Randy and Peggy's program or do it themselves by reading about it here, at Bookmarket.com, or at PromotingYourBooks.com/amazon.htm. I would and have promoted them without any payment many times. The money is secondary to offering people something good. We disagree on whether it is good or not.

5. I really don't know the exact amount I make. I know it's a chunk. Those are not a contradictory statements.

Now, on to your second post:

1. Well, finally you admit it's you who is mad at the Amazon bestseller program. Well, don't use it. Again, I've told people many times how to do it without enrolling in the program, yet I know many people who chose to enroll because they wanted to have their hands held so they were sure they were doing it right and kept on top of it. For them, the money was worth it.

2. No one sells a New York Times bestseller program for a very simple reason: The cost to promote to a NYT bestseller is too high in both time and money. Most larger publishers spend up to $100,000 or more to "manipulate" the NYT list. It's done all the time by them. It's much harder for an unknown author or publisher to do it. I've even helped people do it since I know exactly what you have to do to get on the list. I know the rules and how to work with them to create an NYT bestseller. I don't sell any such program because the cost to carry out an NYT campaign is too high for most people.

3. I could create and sell a NYT bestseller program and probably get a bunch of people to pay me big money to teach them. I could easily charge $10,000 for such a program -- and get it. But I haven't. And won't.

4. I fully understand that the Scientologists did do a buying program for Hubbard's book. I have read the articles in the past, including their work in getting his Battleground Earth novel series on the bestseller lists. I also know that Scientologists can be very intimidating when someone goes against their interests in some way. I've heard all the stories, the innuendoes, etc. But, again, they could not have bought all 50 million copies that have been sold of the Dianetics book.

5. I am ending this discussion. You can keep writing if you like, but I have many better things to do, for myself, for my audience here at the blog, and for the world. Aloha!

I fully understand how to manipulate the Amazon sy...

2005-07-31T11:58:00.000-07:00

I fully understand how to manipulate the Amazon system and you, as well as many of your associates and cohorts are promoting a very expensive program that teaches people how to do it. That's the headliner that's so often seen...not one that says how to get to the NYT best seller's list, it specifies Amazon. That's the topic we're discussing, or at least I am. Do they also teach how to manipulate the NYT list?? I have seen little in way of evidence that it is either as easy to do so or that it has been done by people as unworthy in recognition. I seriously doubt Joyner's Mind Control book will get there, maybe it has, to be honest, I haven't followed it, but it appears that those who will never make it to any best seller's list legitimately can quite easily appear at the top of Amazon, although why anyone needs to pay for the instructions to do it is beyond me. Such is the way of capitalism, I guess. So, that's why my discussion is on the Amazon topic. More people are doing it. More people are targeting independent publishers with programs to help them do it and it's far more realistic that they'll get to the top of Amazon sooner than they will get anywhere near the NYT best seller's list.

As for Hubard's book, do not underestimate Scientology. Time Magazine did a wonderful article on them many years ago, before Tom started jumping on the sofa and claiming he know all about psychiatry that you can see the Time article in its entirety here:
http://www.xenu.net/archive/media/time910605.html Make sure to read the asides and what happened to the journalist who wrote it.

It mentions the book buying scheme.

Lots of tricks out there. Even one famous mainstream trash novelist admitted to buying her own books years ago.

Hi John,You keep trying to change the subject to t...

2005-07-31T11:55:00.000-07:00

Hi John,

You keep trying to change the subject to the New York Times list. However, that's not what this discussion is about. We're not discussing how publishers may or may not be manipulating that list.

What we're discussing is how a leader in the industry (you) is promoting unethical practices and profiting (earning "a big chunk" in your words) from promoting a program that teaches authors how to cheat the Amazon.com system.

Please stop trying to divert attention elsewhere because that's not what this discussion is about. What we're discussing is YOU promoting (and profiting from) the Amazon Best Seller program.

On that note, you state above:

"Someone asked how much I make when someone signs up under my referral. Well, I make a chunk of change, a big chunk. I can't say how much because I promised I would not. I hold to my promises. And, actually, I don't know how much it is per person. Never checked. Didn't care. Didn't need to know."

So, you say you make a "big chunk" of money from authors purchasing this $2K+ program, but then you say you can't tell us how much, and then you claim you don't even know how much money you're making from it...but, again, you admit it's a "big chunk."

I'm having a hard time swallowing that (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) because your statements in the paragraph above completely contradict each other. In fact, many of your statements over the past few days contradict each other. The situation just keeps getting more and more troubling and brings into question your intentions and your integrity.

Also, why, in many of your posts about this program in the past, have you not published a disclaimer that you were earning money from the program while blatantly endorsing it to your readers? Shouldn't you be doing that, or at least be running your endorsements as advertorials? Why have you been hiding your relationship with this company from your readers?

And, isn't it true you're also working for this company on another project?

I don't ever recommend that someone buy their own ...

2005-07-31T10:55:00.000-07:00

I don't ever recommend that someone buy their own book to spike rankings. That's just the easy way out. It can work, sometimes, in getting you a high ranking but it is toying with the system rather than working within it.

The topic of this discussion is the NYT list as well as any other bestseller list. I made it part of the discussion right in my first posting: Points #7, #9, #18, #20, and #22. The discussion of one and not the other is like talking about the national elections and only mentioning the Republican Party as if the Democratic Party did not exist. You can do it, but it becomes rather one-sided and open to all sorts of blind spots.

My first post on which all these comments are appended was a discussion of all bestseller lists, not just the Amazon list. Always has been. I have been writing about how the major publishers manipulate the NYT list all the time. That is very open to discussion. And compared to what the major publishers do with the NYT list, the Amazon campaigns are a mere shadow. Been saying that all along. Saying it again here.

Obviously you see manipulation where I see working within a system, flaws and all. I do not see the Amazon.com campaign as a mere parlor trick. The success of doing it right really comes out of building good relationships. And that is something any author or publisher can be proud of. It doesn't need to be about greed at all.

The Church of Scientology undoubtedly has bought many of Hubbard's books, but not 50 million copies. And that's how many they have sold through the years. Someone is paying attention and apparently liking what they read. I don't agree with buying books in that way. I don't agree with scientology. But I certainly would defend their right to exist and to believe the way they believe.

My sense of self-worth and integrity is very strong -- and is not dependent on any bestseller list or even, for that matter, how many people buy my book. It is independent of what others think. It is dependent on what I think about myself, what my wife thinks of me, and what my dogs think of me. It would also depend on what my parents thought of me if they were still alive.

Personally I don't feel any sense of accomplishment in making any bestseller list. They are just artificial measures, defined in such a way that they measure very little, even though many people value them because they do not know how little they really mean.

Become an Amazon.com bestseller, and hardly anyone notices.

Become a New York Times bestseller, and what happens? First, almost every bookstore in the country begins discounting the book. Second, almost every bookstore in the country highlights the book in the front of the store and/or in a prominent display.

Publishers have manipulated, as you use the word, both lists. But which really matters?

For you it is sickening that people "manipulate" Amazon so deviously, yet you still hold back on the sacrosanct NYT list. As has every other commentator on this post. Why?

And how anyone can equate bestseller with good book -- that I don't understand at all. For every bestselling novel, I can pick out 100 better novels, all published in the same year. Much, much better novels, worthy of far more praise and notice. Written with pride and integrity by people who were creating something they thought others would love. And you are right: The pride in doing that can't be bought or borrowed no matter what. But it really saddens me that so many really good voices have never been heard beyond a small, small audience that luckily somehow discovered them despite everything against them.

Last year, Bill Clinton's memoir dominated the bestseller list for some time, yet 50 or 100 years from now, it is not likely to be mentioned among the top 100 biographies (or autobiographies or memoirs) published in 2004. There were so many more incredible biographies published last year with incredibly moving stories and worthwhile lessons to be learned that anything contained in Clinton's bestseller.

I can take any nonfiction or fiction book that hit the bestseller list last year, this year, or any year, and show that there were hundreds, often thousands of other books meriting far more notice. Ones that might even change the world if someone would only notice.

If an Amazon.com campaign will help even one of these worthy books stand out for even a few hours or a day, I would support the campaigns forever and ever. That is where my honor, my integrity, my morals, and my values stand.

Someone asked how much I make when someone signs up under my referral. Well, I make a chunk of change, a big chunk. I can't say how much because I promised I would not. I hold to my promises. And, actually, I don't know how much it is per person. Never checked. Didn't care. Didn't need to know.

BUT, it really doesn't matter. I don't promote Amazon.com campaigns because I make money off of them. On most, I make nothing. I promote them because they are a way for someone with little or no distribution, little or no chance of publicity, to stand out and get some attention, even for those few hours.

But, it is not just the attention of the people who buy their book, and the people who are told that the book was an Amazon bestseller, but also all the people who heard about the book because of the campaign. An effective Amazon.com campaign reaches at least 100,000 people via mailing lists and promos, all sent by people who are happy to endorse the book and to tie their name and reputation to the book.

I have a feeling that some of you who rail against the Amazon.com campaigns as spam, as being devious, as being fraudulent, have been victims of ill-thought-out and poorly executed campaigns that did not have the true backing of the senders. Those campaigns rarely work.

An Amazon.com campaign only works when the author or publisher builds relationships with the list owners who send out notices. And that means not only convincing the list owners to be part of the sending group, but also convincing them that the book has value independent of anything else. Any list owner with integrity is only going to promote books they really believe in. Otherwise, they devalue their own list and dishonor their customers.

I know I've spent a lot of time on this issue, but I really hate being called a flim flam artist and a man without integrity. Or being told that I need to talk about this with someone who understands morals and integrity. My moral standards are very high. My integrity is whole.

And I'm a firm believer in what you give comes back to you not just one to one, but multifold. Good and bad. I live my life that way. I market my books that way. I write my books that way. I consult that way. And I am happy to be a well-known person who promotes such things.

I'd like to reapeat, I've never done the above. I ...

2005-07-31T10:06:00.000-07:00

I'd like to reapeat, I've never done the above. I do buy up used copies of some of my books - a dozen or so - off of Amazon so I have extra's to give friends. But that's about it in terms of buying my own books.

I am sorry to hear you are ill John, it's never fu...

2005-07-31T08:15:00.000-07:00

I am sorry to hear you are ill John, it's never fun to be under the weather and I hope you recover quickly.

No one mentioned the NYT best seller's list because that's not the topic of this discussion. When you write an article on manipulating that list, John, I will probably comment. I was very tempted to comment on PA, but again didn't think it fair to change the topic and hog your blog on something you hadn't really covered. Although I would really love you to write a blog on PA, so I could comment.

If people think that any sort of manipulation of any system is fair, I feel very sad for you, really. I wouldn't trust a word you said hence forth, but somewhere deep inside I am saddened that people who could have been such shining examples of success would instead choose to do this. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I intend to remain in it and believe me, when I get recognition or awards - and I was on a publisher's best-seller's list for a full year, never bought a single copy of my own product and neither did my friends or family - it will because I honestly earned it and produced something people wanted. The pride in doing that can't be bought or borrowed no matter how many numbers you can twist and turn. Deep inside, your sense of self-worth and your measure of intrgrity comes from who you honestly are, and parlor tricks are not part of that equation. If you really do feel a sense of accomplishment with this, that's so very, very sad it brings tears to my eyes. I only hope that I have brought my children up strong enough not to be tempted by well-known people who promote such things.

Maybe you can discuss this with someone who understand morals and integrity outside of the greed of society, a minister or religious leader, a professor of business or social ethics.

As far as buying your own books goes, that is one of the current arguments now managing to discredit the Church of Scientology - there seems to be ample proof that they bought Hubard's book in such numbers it did become a national best seller, then they returned the books.

The things people do tend to come full circle, with teeth.

One last thing. I totally agree with John that no ...

2005-07-31T06:57:00.000-07:00

One last thing. I totally agree with John that no one thing works when you are marketing a book. You need to do it all. And if some of you think that the words #1 bestseller at Amazon will help you sell books, so be, it, but I know a much easier, less annoying way to get there. And I'll give you this for free - no fee. No kickback, I don't even own Amazon stock.

I have not done it. But I know someone who has. Go on line at 3 AM. Buy 2000 dollars worth of your own book at Amazon. You will be number one for the some part of that hour and then you will also 2000 dollars worth of your own book to give out to people in creative ways and you'll. No one but you will profit from this and you'll have that blurb that you want.

Hi John,You still haven't answered this question:H...

2005-07-31T06:48:00.000-07:00

Hi John,

You still haven't answered this question:

How much in referral fees do you earn when one of your readers signs up for this $2K program?

Hm, the post says I made it at 12:15 p.m. but I ac...

2005-07-30T22:08:00.000-07:00

Hm, the post says I made it at 12:15 p.m. but I actually made it at 12:15 a.m. on Sunday morning.

I have been sick the last five days (a stomach flu...

2005-07-30T22:06:00.000-07:00

I have been sick the last five days (a stomach flu). Today I slept the entire day, except for one hour where I helped my wife out with some errands. I awoke now at 11:30 p.m. to see many more comments, including many anonymous ones.

I find this discussion sort of weird. I think of the Amazon.com campaign as one very small part of a much bigger book marketing campaign. I think it can be a worthwhile campaign combined with a realistic understanding of what it can do and a focussed plan to have it contribute to the rest of your marketing plan in a real way.

Personally, I find the entire discussion rather ridiculous, especially since no one has yet had anything bad to say about all the people who manipulate the New York Times list. Why all this fuss about Amazon and not a word about NYT manipulators? Most of us little guys can't take advantage of the way the NYT list is compiled because of the cost in money and time, but we can take advantage of the way the Amazon.com list is compiled. And yet everyone rails against little guys taking advantage of a system but have nothing to say about the big and powerful taking advantage of a much more respected and influential system. It simply boggles my mind.

I think anyone who achieves a #1 status at Amazon has a right to ballyhoo it if they like. And I do know that it has an impact. While it's true that getting high on such a list might not mean many sales, I do know of many authors or publishers who have sold hundreds and in at least some cases thousands of copies as a result of an Amazon.com bestseller campaign. Now that makes the campaign worthwhile to me. Plus many have sold rights and received media interest because of the campaign.

Again, I have never done such a campaign yet. And when I do, I will not spam any lists. We have a stated Privacy Policy which we link to on the opening page of the BookMarket.com web site.

I do not believe that doing an Amazon.com bestseller campaign is unethical, devious, evil, cheating, spamming, ridiculous, unworthy, or damning in any way. It is an accomplishment when you actually are able to carry it out.

It's not easy to do it effectively. It really does require you to find good partners to work with and to nourish those relationships. Nowadays, if you want the campaign to work (get to #1), you have to live up to the highest ethical standards in creating and maintaining good relationships with appropriate list owners and web sites.

I think many of you might be railing against such campaigns because there has been an onslaught of such campaigns that not been carried out effectively. There are a lot of people who do the campaigns half-heartedly without building the relationships they need to build to have the campaign really work.

There is one thing during the past 15 years that I've hammered on over and over again. It is simply this: All of marketing comes down to one thing: Building and maintaining relationships. This activity cannot be carried out effectively by unethical, cheating, uncaring, or lazy people. I'm known as a book marketing expert by thousands of people for one simple reason: I know what works. And what works is just this: Creating and nourishing relationships. Nothing else works for very long.

There are many bad things you can do in marketing a book, things that are unwise, deceitful, uneconomical, etc. I have written against many of these in the past. I do not believe that the Amazon.com bestseller campaign is one of them. I really do believe it's an achievement when you can do it effectively. And worthy of recognition. It certainly isn't the same as getting on the New York Times, Publishers Weekly, or USA Today lists -- all of which deservedly get more recognition.

But if I had my choice on which list I'd want to be on, it is very simple: The BookSense bestseller list. Because that list comes directly from the heart and minds of frontline booksellers.

Indeed, the list I really want to be on is the one in the heart and minds of my potential (and previous) customers. Because they are the ones I want to reach.

Word of mouth only happens when you create something good. Word of mouth is responsible for 80% of all book sales. It is word of mouth that sells my book, 1001 Ways to Market Your Books. Nothing else is as effective. Never has been. Never will be. -- John Kremer, ethical book marketing expert

Just like to point out that there seem to be sever...

2005-07-30T10:15:00.000-07:00

Just like to point out that there seem to be several people posting anonymously, all of these posts are not mine. At least one even support Kremer, although I saw no objection when that person didn't sign a name.

An interesting discussion for sure. One thing I'd ...

2005-07-30T10:12:00.000-07:00

An interesting discussion for sure. One thing I'd like to point out MJ is that people DO use those "I was #1 on Amazon" rankings to try and sell books. Take a look at the sales pitch for Joyner's book "Mind Control Marketing" here:
http://ebookpalace.com/search/build/business/marketing_promotion/index1.shtml

It's an old example, and not my best, but it gives you an idea of the potential for what the stats can offer in terms of potential advertising.

I do believe people will buy books based on that. They will buy anything based on unsubstantiated claims. Take a look at all the book marketing experts out there who have never sold a book, worked for a book publisher or in advertising and still have people dishing over $100s for their advice. Sometimes I wonder if these people have ever read a book.

The rankings don't mean anything for sure. And perhaps $$ isn't the motivation, perhaps it's simply ego. The same way people sell books at a loss simply so they can say "oh, I have a book on Amazon." I don't know. I just know it seems underhanded and deceiptful to me.

My Dear John and Anonymous,Thank you for the incre...

2005-07-30T10:05:00.000-07:00

My Dear John and Anonymous,

Thank you for the incredibly intense dialogue regarding organizing an amazon.com best-seller campaign or not.

I’ve been quietly watching every word typed, as I very enthusiastically prepare for the finale of my Women’s Empowerment Outreach Campaign on August 11, 2005—Surprise: an amazon.com best-seller campaign for my “Empowering Women to Power Network”, PublishAmerica 2005 (a very happy PA author).

I will try hard to be succinct:

I have been very empowered by my experience of organizing this campaign, which I started way-back in March 2005. I’ve power networked my way to receive this incredible endorsement yesterday:

“Not all authors have J.K. Rowling's magic to become an instantaneous best-seller...savvy experts are using the power of networking to build immediate book sales. A great example: Ponn Sabra is practicing what she preaches in her new book "Empowering Women to Power Network". (And, yes, this stuff works for men, too!) With at least two self-made multi-millionaires on her line-up, she joins forces with the "big dawgs" to build huge momentum for her one-day offer on August 11th. To see a powerhouse at work, (and getting the book won't hurt either) click here (my homepage: http://www.EmpowerWomenNow.com.” At http://www.sullivanspeaker.com/tipsandtrends.htm

I agree 100% with all the professional decisions, advice and insights that John has politely shared on this blog. I also appreciate Anonymous’s view. But your last professional attempt to share your concern that you ‘don’t see you (John) as a lost cause, just misguided and I hope you do not lead others down this same route.”, I had to share my 2-cents.

Why I am still empowered to conduct my amazon.com campaign?

1. A response to Anonymous’s sarcasm to PublishAmerica (PA) authors:

PA created a physically-appealing (“the cover is terrific”) and content-rich, “must-have reference for all women”, when I was on medical leave after a horrible car accident which I’m still recovering from. One of my biggest accomplishments (which PA allowed me the time to achieve this defeat): I had NO prior personal or professional relationship with any of the reviewers from various industries for my book. Therefore, the testimonials written are based on the principles that work and the insights shared. Having been a freelance writer for over a decade, I can confidently say I am a proud PA author, with the opportunity to produce my work in a book form. So, I framed my $1, as an accomplishment that I did not have to pay-out and self-publish my first book, during the most vulnerable time in my life. Oh, and I received 2 offers from other real-publishers too. After 3.5 months of negotiating, PA offered the best package. I believe it’s all how one handles their business and their professional work that allows them favorable opportunities and outcomes.

2. I didn’t plan a short-term one-day cross-promotional online book marketing campaign to satisfy my one-goal to get the “best-seller” title. I am truly committed to all my venture partners’ work, products and services. Also, I didn’t just work with anyone…I verified their work, websites, etc., and even had to turn-away potential partners, as the fit didn’t seem appropriate. My reputation (and integrity) was and is always at stake. So, since March, I did extensive research, built quality relationships, and formed a group of over 50 partners who collectively, we will promote everyone else’s work on August 11th. We’ll have a mailing to over 200,000 opt-in subscribers, and the choice to send to their family and friends. I launched the campaign on June 1st at my Empowering Women Right Now Blog at http://empowerwomennow.blogspot.com Fortunately, these partnerships resulted in numerous other book publicity opportunities for me, such as internet talk radio interviews, podcast interviews, features of me, my work and book in articles, other websites, and much more. I’ve positioned myself as a Women’s Empowerment Queen, and Power Networker (the 2 aspects of my book), strictly my building venture partners for what I renamed as “OUR” Women’s Empowerment Outreach Campaign. I have not solicited new partners in the past 6 weeks, and partners are now coming to me…to jump-on our campaign’s already successful momentum. [BTW, all the spin-off book publicity ideas I learned from John’s book, philosophy, blogs, website, etc. Of all the book publicity “experts” out there, John has been and still is #1 in my book, and I refer everyone to his material. See  http://shoestringbookpub.blogspot.com/2005/03/open-horizons-john-kremers-promoting.html ].

3. I am highly against spam, and I constantly think of the integrity of all the partners. I can confidently say, that if you ask any of my partners, they can attest to my flexibility and request for their input so the “gain” from this cross-promotional opportunity is felt by all. I’m extremely personable and personal in my correspondences, and our “sales” letter is hardly, but a powerful recommendation for my book with an Empowering B onus Gift-Box to incentivize the sales on my book on one-day. “The Women’s Empowerment Tool-Kit: Everything You Need for Your Personal and Professional Empowerment from Start-up to Success”. Harmful? Not at all. Our intent is pure…and our actions to support our intent are equally as pure.

4. By applying the very power network principles of my book, I’m creating a power network of experts who are simply promoting the very book that empowered me to meet them in the first place. Personally, I am still extremely empowered by this process!

[Disclosure: I may have taken the amazon.com best-seller campaign to a higher-level than past organizers, but like I said I had to share “my 2-cents” based on my own Empowering Power Network experience].

To OUR empowerment,
Ponn Sabra
EmpowerWomenNow.com

P.S. John, I'd still love for you to be our Book Marketing Expert! (Hey, I couldn't let this one empowering power network opportunity pass by!)